Condor Watch Talk

Question for Scientist: Molting vs. Feather damage

  • wreness by wreness moderator

    Great question from @donsa about feathers.

    The condor in this photo seems to have a large area of ragged/damaged feathers (large pic) which might just be wear and tear? Damage from a fight?

    When condors molt do they do it like other birds where the feathers come in on those awful 'wax tubes' that poke through their skin and they have to break apart to free the feather? Do they come in here and there, one at a time or in big sections?

    In short - can we have a lesson on feather growth, please, and what's up with this bird in the photo?

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  • zekazoo by zekazoo scientist

    Good eyes! What we are seeing is just wear and tear, some of which might be improved by a simple preening.

    When condors molt the old feathers drops off completely and is replaced by a fresh new feather. There is a small bit of waxy sheath when the feather first emerges, but the feather quickly unfurls to it's normal shape. There is a pattern to feather molt, however since it takes condors years to molt and replace all of their feathers there are feathers of varying ages on a bird at any given time point (except when they get their first adult feathers, then they are all the same age, new). It's more like the one here, one there model than in big chunks. And when you think about it, that makes the most sense for maintaining their ability to fly year round. For instance, if they lost a bunch of their flight feathers on one of their wings at once, their ability to fly the long distances they need to in order to forage for food would be severely impaired. So instead they just molt slowly throughout the year. Interesting anecdote, there are some duck species which molt all of their flight feathers at once and are grounded until they get their new feathers in!

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  • Shiphrah by Shiphrah

    @wreness - Here's a condor with 4-5 flight feathers missing together, looks like new ones growing in. According to @zekazoo 's explanation, could this be due to accident or fight, and damage flying ability? http://talk.condorwatch.org/?&&_ga=1.204986323.273005306.1425179794#/subjects/ACW00050s7

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  • DZM by DZM admin

    Off-topic slightly, but heading a topic with "Question for Scientist" is probably a great way to get it answered. Good call, @wreness --!

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  • wreness by wreness moderator in response to Shiphrah's comment.

    They are missing feathers - good catch!

    I'm not sure if they'd lose that many at a time (and in a section like that) due to molting because as you said it would mess with their flying I'd think. But maybe! I can ask Zekazoo to take a look and give us her expert opinion on this.

    Whether they molt or get broken off in a fight or accident, those "dots" you see are either 1} the broken off "quill" of the feather (the shaft) or the "sheath" of the new feathers growing back in.

    I know, you're going O.o To Explain!

    Feathers grow in on all birds the same way. And it hurts - they're not really happy when they molt. Imagine if your hair grew in on stiff sticks that you had to crack away. And "ew"

    When a new feather grows the protective waxy sheath will push its way through the pore of the skin much like our hair does only these are huge as you can imagine. It has veins and arteries inside the center. The cells inside sheath do their things and create the "barbs" that produce the "fluff" that end up being "feathers."

    The waxy sheath dries up bit by bit as it gets away from the skin and can be flaked off. The birds nibble it off, rub it off or preen it away from each other.

    When the quill and the barbs are both done growing, the cells and blood vessels in the center die back and that leaves the inside of the feather hollow. Viola, Nature is neat! . That's why feathers are light and why, if a bird breaks a feather, they don't bleed to death. If you cut a feather too close to the skin, though, where there is still a blood supply, they bleed so bad you have no idea.

    There was another pic around here from long ago showing some "dots" that were also feathers coming in. I looked but can't find it, but I'm stubborn and will keep looking.

    Thanks for the great Q !

    @DZM - Than you 😃 I figured that title is better than "HELP I"M GOING . O.o.. " 😇

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  • zekazoo by zekazoo scientist

    Great explanation @wreness ! The missing feathers in the picture you are talking about ( http://talk.condorwatch.org/?&&_ga=1.204986323.273005306.1425179794#/subjects/ACW00050s7) does not look like a natural molt pattern so I would expect these feathers were lost in some sort of trauma. It could have been an altercation with a predator or a flight with another condor. Feathers also could potentially break from an impact.

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  • wreness by wreness moderator in response to zekazoo's comment.

    Thank you Zekazoo! Whatever it was I'm glad the condor got away with only the loss of a few feathers 😮

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  • wreness by wreness moderator

    Addition -

    I finally found that other photo that I saw long ago that showed another bird with feathers that were broken off or growing in.

    This is the best part - this is the same bird on the same day. This photo was classified in June, 2014. Jackpot! What luck having this angle, too.

    original TALK photo

    Large photo with great detail

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  • Shiphrah by Shiphrah

    Wow! what a find!

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  • wreness by wreness moderator

    This makes it easier! This was so cool to find and learn about ..thank you !

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  • Shiphrah by Shiphrah

    @wreness Just now I was classifying another picture of what looked like the same bird on 2010-11-28 or 29. It had folded wings with almost exactly the same gap in right wing. There was big crowd then, and while marking other birds I was happily composing a note to you when by accident I touched a wrong spot and was dropped into Penguin Watch! Since I hadn't finished, I lost the image. But I remember it was one of those 2 days, I think the 28th. But the condor in question seemed to be wearing a red tag on that same wing, number not legible, so maybe it was a different one? It was on the closer side of the carcass with head down, almost exactly where the picture you found showed it. Do you have any way to recover that picture? Or could the tagging people have put on a tag in those few days? Surely they'd have made a note about the missing flight feathers?

    I'm still kicking myself for that mistake.

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  • Shiphrah by Shiphrah

    @wreness I found it! ACW0004m29. This wonderful site let me go back to the one I'd left unfinished! It's an adult, more to the left than I'd remembered.

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  • wreness by wreness moderator in response to Shiphrah's comment.

    Did you go to that photo on PW with the 3,046 penguins standing by the Post Office? That's always fun to count 😛

    The Red tag bird is Red90, one of the more awesome birds here, born in 1998. She's an adult (pink head) and the bird with the damaged wing is a juvenile (black head). In your photo, Red90 is preening herself and so some of her feathers are turned over and out of order. This could look like damage but she's just rearranging her hairstyle, so to speak

    Interesting this bird is turning up all of a sudden. Hopefully we'll see a tag soon!

    Thanks for keeping up with this 😃

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  • DZM by DZM admin in response to wreness's comment.

    Did you go to that photo on PW with the 3,046 penguins standing by the Post Office?

    Which one? That describes MANY PW images! 😃

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  • wreness by wreness moderator in response to DZM's comment.

    (That was my point ;D) I think that would be a great job out there. I'm sure very tough but I saw the article recently about it and all the applications they had. What a rare thing to be able to do if you could stand the cold (and the noise!).

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