Condor Watch Talk

That disgusting horse carcass

  • wreness by wreness moderator

    Several of us (I'm not mentioning names) (I'm not) have wondered about this disgusting horse carcass, some of us being so obsessed we even have a collection on the thing (I'm not saying who). As far as the photos go so far, we've viewed it rotting away for almost 2 weeks now. The only thing eating it are ravens.

    One condor wandered by, went "nope" and left. An eagle came by, went "nah" and left. A coyote stuck its head in the corner and ran. The ravens seem to have mosh parties on the thing. No bears, no mountain lions. Perhaps it's still laying out there. Is there a reason nothing will eat this thing and if so why did the Carcass Gods put it out there?

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  • DZM by DZM admin

    (It's worth noting that "almost 2 weeks now" did happen four and a half years ago, going by the timestamps. 😃 I doubt that it's still there today!)

    But yes! Thank you for making this thread! I am legitimately wondering what could turn off everything but the ravens, and even then, only a few. I've never seen anything like this.

    The most gross conversation ever! Poor horsie. 😦

    Maybe whoever placed it can recall?

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  • Canmore1919 by Canmore1919

    Perhaps whoever placed the poor horse there should view all these pictures, one by one, in a sequential order before going to bed at night. 😃 It seems we all have had this unfortunate image seared into our retinas.

    Maybe this was a science experiment to see if horses can make "good" carcasses? And now we all know the answer to that burning question. If there ever is another site with a horse ... I swear... Well OK, I don't know what I'll do but, I will swear!

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  • ElisabethB by ElisabethB moderator

    I never thought I could actually feel anything for a carcass, but here I am, actually feeling sorry for a carcass that no one will eat ! 😄

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  • DZM by DZM admin

    Maybe the horse had a good life? You know... beforehand...

    Now I'm wondering from where they acquire these carcasses...

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  • ElisabethB by ElisabethB moderator

    I'm so not into karma anymore ! ;D

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  • wreness by wreness moderator in response to Canmore1919's comment.

    @Canmore1919 - I tried to excuse the Jello Horse in the name of science, too, thinking it could be an experiment and hey, why not? Manners would have suggested 'they' at least take a power saw and cut the thing in the center and get it started for the diners, I would think.

    I remember when you posted this photo (it's dated 7 months before Jello Horse) and thought it was also a horse? - I did too. I just checked it again and thought please for the love of Odin, let it be a cow. But cows don't have upper teeth And on closer look I believe that's a raven which would back up that no one wants to touch these things but those goofs

    @Els - that's what the horse said 😄

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  • vjbakker by vjbakker scientist

    This question requires getting into the minds of some very quirky birds, so on the day before Thanksgiving, I emailed the 3 condor release sites (the folks who supply the carcasses and monitor the birds on a daily basis) and was thrilled to hear back from biologists at Southern California and Pinnacles sites right away. Here is the thread, lightly edited for clarity. Spoiler: they're not really sure either, but they do offer speculation and context

    Note that proffered food is carcasses provided at feeding stations, while nonproffered is food that condors find on their own in the wild or on ranches.

    We have been getting repeated questions on Condor Watch about what has become known as "that disgusting horse carcass". We see endless photos (eg, http://talk.condorwatch.org/#/subjects/ACW000353c http://talk.condorwatch.org/#/subjects/ACW00034ej) with nary a scavenger on it (occasionally some ravens). It seemed to sit there for a week or so, swelling up in embarrassing places. Our volunteers are really curious about why this might be and have asked for a scientific explanation.

    Anyone care to enlighten us on the culinary preferences of condors and in particular what might be wrong with this absolutely delicious looking horse? …

    Happy Thanksgiving all,

    Vickie

    Vickie,
    The horse was at Bitter Creek so I'll take the first stab at an answer but would also love to hear from Central CA.
    So the bottom line is we are not really sure why the horse was never fed on. Based on information we had my best guess is that the condors had become conditioned to seeing one type of carcass at that feeding site. We typically fed still born calves at that location and I think the change in carcass 'threw the condors off' for lack of a better way to put it. If my memory is correct we documented condors feeding on nonproffered horse in a much more difficult to reach location around the same time this proffered horse was available. At any rate we have definitely documented condors feeding on horse before and after this horse was made available.

    I don't think it's about the condor not recognizing the horse as food but rather because the horse shows up where they are conditioned to see calves, this sets of some sort of response and the become very vigilant to the point of not feeding. I do not recall this being an issue when we fed fallow/axis deer but we would often feed a calf and a deer simultaneously, especially early on.

    The other possibility is that there could have been something present that we were unaware of that was causing the condors to stay away. Like a predator. This might explain why there are [generally] not any ravens or eagles present [in the photos] either (not a lot of turkey vultures out at Bitter Creek.) We have seen other examples of condors not feeding on large carcasses for an unexplained reason. In one case it was a large nonproffered cow on Tejon Ranch. [Some have] speculated that it was because the condors were unable get through the skin. I didn't really buy this idea because they seem very capable of tearing into most anything, like whales.
    [This case] definitely left us scratching our heads. [However, we have seen] that condors can become very vigilant to changes at feeding sites. For example condors will pick up on subtle changes that clue them in to our trapping [activities].

    Ok that's enough out of me.

    Cheers and happy Thanksgiving.

    Hi Vickie,
    I think [these conjectures] are spot on. We have had similar things happen [at Pinnacles] - we'll put a horse or an adult cow at the bait site and the condors just will not touch it. It's not every time though, which adds to the mystery. I can't believe they don't recognize it as food, it's just not the food they are expecting or something else is making them shy away from it.

    Wishing you a wonderful Thanksgiving!

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  • wreness by wreness moderator

    What interesting info, thank you! Kind of cute that the condors get used to seeing calf and act like finicky House Cats over the placement of the horse as their meal instead of just seeing it as more Free Eats.

    On the smaller scale here there are cow carcasses that condors seem to avoid while eating the others near it, or they show a definite preference. You'll see a crowd elbowing each other on one carcass when there are several around in the same open conditions. It's only until there are no other options that they'll start to be picked at.

    Concerning that - I wonder if method of death matters? Were those particular animals put down or did they die on their own? What illness they died from - does that matter? I have read that scavengers will never eat an animal if it's been killed by lightening which is further proof they know a lot we'll never figure out 😃

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  • DZM by DZM admin

    That's absolutely fascinating! Kudos to @vjbakker and everyone for getting us a real answer, or at least a few real conjectures.

    On some other projects, I'm battling to even hear a peep out of the science team. It's nice to remember that we have scientists!

    P.S., @vjbakker ... any chance that this information, about condors reacting poorly to changes in types of carcasses... could be later tested, and maybe even make its way into a paper or something? It seems like it could be quite a discovery!

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  • wreness by wreness moderator

    The scientists here are the best. As you see (because you're all over zoo) some of these areas are like echo chambers and you even wonder if they're still active - no one has even posted for months if not longer. Some areas are just hash tags of what everyone just classified. I love that you actually learn here. There is so much information on so many topics. And so many smart, funny, curious people. A very special group. Hail, us! 😃 (and thank you DZM for all you do for us)

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  • ElisabethB by ElisabethB moderator

    I'll second that ! 😄

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  • DZM by DZM admin

    Aw, you guys are so kind.

    Thank you! Everyone who classifies and comments, you guys are the real heroes. 😃

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  • vjbakker by vjbakker scientist

    Thank you wreness and ElisabethB! I have to second DZM's response. You all are the real heros. And wreness, you are a superhero (btw, we know how many classifications you've done!)

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  • vjbakker by vjbakker scientist in response to DZM's comment.

    Interesting thought DZM. The field sites are so busy just trying to keep the condors alive that they observe lots of intereresting behaviors but aren't always able to document it. However, we are getting actual data from our photos. We will have a long string of photos with carcass and condors and carcass and eagles and carcass and coyotes, and these will be interspersed with shorter intervals of carcasses and nothing. We could compare carcass type and other factors to see if we can detect what might be driving this behavior. There is another site that often has no condors (http://talk.condorwatch.org/#/subjects/ACW0000ys8) but that site usually has partially or completely eaten carcasses so there I think the issue is the camera being set at too high a sensitivity or there being lots of activity of ground squirrels or pocket gophers setting the camera off. Anyway, yes, interesting point about this being a discovery DZM

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  • DZM by DZM admin in response to vjbakker's comment.

    Thank you! Yes, of course, species survival is the #1 priority. 😃

    Heck, maybe understanding their feeding habits (and what causes them to turn off) could even help with species survival in the long run!

    Anyway, if this comes to anything, please let us know! We'll all be keeping our eyes out for other carcasses that go strangely untouched.

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  • wreness by wreness moderator in response to vjbakker's comment.

    Aw, thank you. I haven't done as many classifications as I did before because of keeping track of other things, too, so I bet I didn't hit my my target number of Eleventy Hundred Fifty yet 😃.

    However! It seems if there are multiple carcasses and there is a brown on among them, they will choose the brown one last. Has to be plain brown; not speckled. I've seen that a few times so it's hardly "scientific" but it stood out. Also they like carcasses that have been "started" for them. I've seen some where saws were used to make cuts (or cut things off - always interesting, as an added perk at 3 AM, to figure out what the heck that lump of ball of carcass is 😛) ) and so opened the pathway, so to speak, and that left out a lot of the -everyone standing around tapping their foot- stuff. Voila! There were condors.

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  • DZM by DZM admin

    Someone found a picture with an actual raptor (can't tell what type) checking out the horse!

    http://talk.condorwatch.org/#/subjects/ACW00034xi

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  • yshish by yshish in response to DZM's comment.

    Unbelievable!

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  • wreness by wreness moderator in response to DZM's comment.

    It's an eagle and as you pointed out, he doesn't look at all thrilled to be there. They usually go after the uh...orifices or the belly at least, where it's soft and easy to access the innards and no one is bothering with any of that. I think eventually they just went and got the thing but I wonder if they had cut it open with a power saw or something (yeah yeah gross, I know) and started the hard work for everyone if there would have been more action there? I know it was different for the condors to see a horse at that spot, so that threw them off. If there was a lot of "everyone else" maybe all the fanfare would have brought them in. You have to admit if you saw a nice, big, juicy pike of intestines laying there you'd be tempted! Admit it! 😄

    We have some bizarre discussions here. That's why I love this place 😃

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  • DZM by DZM admin

    Well, ordinary carrion doesn't get power-sawed, and the feathered folk seem to go after that... :p

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  • yshish by yshish

    These guys keep searching for him: http://talk.condorwatch.org/#/subjects/ACW0003pyd

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  • Aegypius by Aegypius

    Have you thought about medication or freezing-effects? Maybe jello horse had some kind of veterinary treatment before it was killed. Now it tastes like eucalyptus and condors don't like plant-stuff-scent on their meal? To be serious: It would be great if they were able to detect diclofenac or other medication and not eat such stuff.
    With the calves not being eaten: If it's really always the dark brown ones, I suppose they are coming from the same farm. What do the farmers do with them before they are brought to the feeding sites? Keep them cool or freezing and unfreezing? Maybe that's doing something to the carcasses quality or taste form a condor point of view. Are the carcasses puffing out and bursting the same way if the rumen and all the bacteria inside have been frozen for a while?

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  • wreness by wreness moderator

    Hi Aegypius!

    As far as I know (might be wrong - this is common 😄)...the carcasses are delivered pretty immediately after their demise so they're as close-to- fresh as possible since this duplicates what would be found in nature. It's a tightly run logistic ship to keep that food supply coming, distributed, the sites cleaned. Saying all that, due to the nature of dairy farms, private donors and slaughterhouses there's a large supply of fresh carcasses and those that work with the Condor Recovery program to donate them.. There are 3 separate flocks of condors spanning the area from Central to Southern California. That's a lot of territory and a lot of feeding stations.

    As far as condor "taste", one wonders if they have any (pause for laffs...). Condors eat everything except the large bones but will crack these to get to the marrow. Like all scavengers (including the turkey vultures you see here), they have specialized bacteria in their guts that break down the toxins in the rotting meat that would kill anything else and which provide the bird with important nutrients. They are evolutionary wonders. As far as detecting diclofenac , etc.I don't think this would be a deterrent in any way since this poison is what's decimating the vultures in Europe; by some miracle a toxic, man-made chemical would be shunned by the birds (or any animal for that matter, as it's been recently discovered that that's what's killing off the honey bees, also) then what a miracle that would be.

    Possibly, meditations may be used to put down ill cows (if these are even used - I'll ask one of the scientists to chime in on this.) or euthanize a rabbit, etc. Do medications taste any worse than botulism, rot, decay, maggots or even gangrene? Would a condor avoid an animal that died or a certain illness like tumors? Surely animals die in the wild of sickness all the time and are eaten. Here's another twist - Here's the rub - condors have no sense of smell so it would rule out them smelling "chemical" or something strange coming off an animal. And again, with all that decay and rot would you even detect a tiny bit of something that put an ill animal to sleep?

    Some of this discussion started a while ago when one of our long-time Condor Watch classifiers @inaspin and I got obsessed about why a little deformed brown calf untouched while everything else around it was devoured. I thought maybe there was something wrong with the calf (it really looks creepy) and inaspin wondered if it was because it was brown. A few started saving the photos in collections and sure enough - no one ate this calf until a brave eagle started into it. Along the way, we noticed other Brown Things did get eaten, though, including that massive brown Steer you see on the 11-28 and 11-29 2010 photos (the Eat-A-Thon.)

    We came to realize it's not "brown" things but strangely the condors do seem to prefer other "colors" first if there's a choice available. That's not a "scientific" observation, reported and noted; just one of those quirky things us Condor Watch people who are awake at 3AM and sit here looking for random "goofy side projects" to message each other with, find. (If you ever think of any, message away!)

    As far as the Condors and Jello Horse, that just - well. ew. Months ago I pestered one of the scientists about that one. vjbakker wrote to the folks at that particular feeding site and they replied with a nice note that's on the board here . The short version is that condors will indeed eat a horse carcass if they come across one. It was never really figured out why the Jello Horse wasn't eaten but there were a few theories:

    1} this group of condors and this feeding site were usually given cow carcasses so they were a bit taken aback by this Horse Thing suddenly showing up and didn't want to eat it. But as said, they certainly eat horses so this wouldn't really explain it.

    2} There may have been some unseen predator or threat around the area and the condors just didn't feel safe going to the horse. But nothing was ever seen or noted.

    The interesting thing is nothing seems to have eaten the Jello Horse, really. Just the ravens picking at it, like a cheese ball, and an occasional eagle or coyote stopping by. I believe there was a condor or two. The interesting photos we've so far seen show groups of condors standing in the back field looking at the horse from afar as if conducting a tourist group.

    Eventually it rotted away into the earth and was buried there.

    I'm with you - the carcass stuff is fascinating, the logistics are fascinating.

    To see condors actually, really eating something here's the Ventana Wildlife Society's Live Feeding Cam That's the site "with the cage" that we see here in photos. When they feed the condors, they show it Live but it's up most of the day anyway. As I type this there are 2 standing around. You can sign up for an eMail alert when they're actually fed. When you see them eat you can't believe how powerful they are! And it's just so cool to see familiar tags/birds in motion acting like...well...condors after seeing them in photos.

    I'll ask one of the scientists if they have anything to add about the topic..great Q..thank you!

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